08 December 2005 @ 05:44 am
It's possible to love both Anakin and Mace at the same time, you know.  
I've had this one stored up for a while. It's been said before by many people and will be said again; hell, many of you have probably heard me rant about this before. I'm just here to point out the flaws in logic for those who keep acting like Anakin was an innocent little lamb who would have never have harmed a fly if Mace, Yoda, Obi-Wan, etc hadn't been so meeeeeeen to him, omg. I would like to know why so many fans who excuse Anakin's actions by saying he had PTSD and that the Clone Wars were hard on him, and really he's a misunderstood woobie, act like Mace Windu and Yoda are the bad guys.

I get that they hate them. Fine, whatever. I don't care about which characters they hate or love. But what I want to know is how they can say Anakin has PTSD and how he suffered in the Clone Wars, and then blatantly act like none of the other Jedi suffered at all. I mean, Anakin wasn't fighting the Clone Wars by himself. You know Obi-Wan? The guy who trained him? He was there with Anakin, suffering from PTSD and the effects of war, too. So was Mace. So was Yoda. So was every single Jedi. They're all empaths. Sure, Anakin was the most sensitive, but that doesn't cheapen the fact that Jedi were being decimated by war, weren't made to fight wars, and were all being horribly affected by it.

Sure, I feel bad for Anakin, but the argument doesn't hold water against Mace, Yoda, Obi-Wan, and the rest of the Jedi crew. Believe it or not, they were the good guys. They were on Anakin's side, too, until Anakin, all on his very own with some nudging from dear old Uncle Palpatine, chose to betray them.

I'm not saying the Jedi Council, Mace, Yoda, or anyone else is perfect. Sure, they made mistakes, could have done things differently, etc. I don't even agree with all their beliefs and practices, though I think they have a solid foundation. I'm just saying they were suffering, too. And if you're gonna excuse Anakin for murdering an entire religious order along with the babies and then subsequently tyrannizing the galaxy, then we can excuse Mace Windu for being a distrustful hard ass. If it's okay for Anakin to run around lopping four-year-olds' heads off and watching a Temple full of Jedi burn, it's okay for Obi-Wan, in turn, to lop off his arm and legs and then watch him burn. If it's okay for Anakin to oppress a galaxy, it's okay for Yoda to tell him to suck it up during meditation. See where I'm going with this?

Seriously? I love Anakin Skywalker. I love Darth Vader. I love his dark side, I love his redemption. I love that he's a complete idiot who made a wrong choice. I can forgive him for what he did, even if I find it reprehensible. I even find it somewhat understandable. I mean, honestly, if someone I loved could be saved by me killing a bunch of people, even my friends, I would have to stop and think, too. I can understand the man's reasoning. I only hope if I was to be placed in a decision like that, I'd make the right choice and hack up the Sith Lord, not the Jedi Master standing over him. So, yes, I do have sympathy for Anakin. But when he got his ass kicked on Mustafar? He deserved it -- George Lucas clearly says in an interview that the plot device was intentionally done to punish his character. So he had to walk around in a lifesuit ever after? Given his crimes, both past and future, I think he got off easy.

And for the record, though my favorite character is Obi-Wan, I don't agree with his choice to leave Anakin there on Mustafar. Given how much he claimed (and seemed) to love Anakin, that was pretty fucking cold. But I can understand it, much like I can understand Anakin's decision. Obi-Wan was hurt, angry, and had given up all hope. He's not perfect, either. I won't deny it, why would I? I love Obi-Wan for his flaws as much as his strengths. But why do you want to condemn him and not Anakin? Wtf.

In other words, let's condemn the whole cast of characters for their various degrees of crimes. Otherwise, if you're going to forgive a villain who stomped across four films murdering people out of turn, I think you can forgive the Jedi Council for being hard on Anakin or assuming an inexperienced Jedi Knight could train him okay. No, really. Compare the grievances there for a little perspective.

Every time people blame the Jedi Council for Anakin's actions, I'm hearing fundamentalists yapping about how videogames and rock music made the kids put on black trenchcoats and go to school and shoot people. Yeah, that's what it sounds like to me. The videogames and rock music may not exactly have been good influences on these already disturbed kids, but they didn't make them carry AK-47s to school and pop a cap in the class clown's head. Hence, the Jedi Council, whatever its imperfections (and yes it has them), did not make Anakin become a Sith Lord. I believe he did that himself. After all, Palpatine did offer him a choice.

So, sure this is all my opinion and interpretation, but every time I hear the Anakin fangirls blame the Jedi Council, I'm hearing, "MACE/YODA/OBI-WAN/*INSERT JEDI OF CHOICE HERE* WAS MEEEEEEEN TO ANAKIN AND I HAAAAAAATE HIM BECAUSE IT'S ALL HIS FAULT ANAKIN KILLED TEH BABIEZZZZZZZZZ!!11!!" It makes my blood pressure rise. It's not that simple, nor is it black-and-white. Whatever mistakes the Jedi Council made, none of them deserved what Anakin did to them. None of them forced Anakin's hand. He had a clear choice the whole way and he made the wrong one. Understandable and sad for Anakin? Oh, yes. Even more sad for Obi-Wan and the rest of the Jedi.

If someone claims to be an Anakin fangirl, they'd better be prepared to accept that he's not perfect, otherwise they don't really like the character. They just like an idealized version of him. And what I've always liked about Star Wars is that the characters aren't perfect and make lots of mistakes. You don't have to take a character's side to love them. It sounds like they're arguing that Anakin could have been saved if Obi-Wan had given him more hugs as a child or if Mace bonded with him over videogames. Which makes me go: O.o

So basically, I don't care if people are hating Mace, Yoda, Obi-Wan, and the rest of the Jedi. Seriously, loathe them, making a dart board from Samuel L. Jackson's promo photos for all I care. Just don't start blaming them for Anakin's actions, all while excusing him by virtue of something they were all suffering from. That's liked "hypocritical" squared. At least use Earth logic in your reasoning or something. Everybody fucked up somewhere in the SW saga, but Anakin still made his choice -- and people seem to be forgetting that he still had that choice, as hard as it was. Not all choices are simple and clear-cut. I mean, really, choosing between fries or onion rings with my burger can lock me up at times, so I can only imagine how hard something involving life and death would be.

Man, am I the only person in this fandom who is both Anakin's AND Mace's fangirl? When did liking these two characters become mutually exclusive? WHY ARE WE TAKING THE SIDES OF IMAGINARY CHARACTERS, ANYWAY?

Here's your standard rant disclaimer, because otherwise someone will get their knickers in a twist: this is all my opinion, this isn't at anyone or anything specific (except said idiot friend of my sister -- where does she dig these people up?), yadda yadda yadda. Of course it's just my opinion. What the fuck else would I post in my LJ?

*offers cookies and love to those who don't wish to listen to me rant*
 
 
Current Mood: annoyedsuffering from oldcommentitis
Current Music: Yeah Yeah Yeahs -- Maps
 
 
( 55 comments — Leave a comment )
wendynat: sw mace by snarkelwendynat on December 8th, 2005 11:44 am (UTC)
WORD. And nope, you're not the only Anakin and Mace fangirl :). I love them both, FOR their flaws. And for everyone who freaks because Mace didn't trust Anakin... erm. He was kinda right, ya know? :)

Yeah, Yoda coulda paid more attention to the dream problem he had, and saw the red flag raised, but how many other Jedi were having death dreams during the wars? Yeah, Mace should've had Anakin come with him to arrest Palpatine. But would it have made a big difference, really? I'm sure Palpy could've manipulated it just as easily that way. Either at that moment, or later near the trial time.

*shrug* Anakin's a murderer - he's always had it in him, the Jedi Council didn't "put" that there. He murders for understandable motives (well, a whole Temple along with babies is kinda tough to swallow, no matter your motive), but he's not a nice guy. Obsessive, jealous, murdering. Hot, sure. But way beyond the typical "bad-boy appeal" thing. :)
Jax: mace intergalactic dramaimadra_blue on December 8th, 2005 11:59 am (UTC)
Yay! Exactly. Dude, flaws make characters fun! And Mace obviously had good reaosn to distrust Anakin. Furthermore, in AotC, people seem to forget Mace was actually quite nice to Anakin.

I agree that Yoda could have probed more, same for Padme, even -- hell, even Obi-Wan. Mace could have trusted him. But how do we know the choices would have been so different? We don't. Like you said, Palpatine could have twisted it.

Yep. The Jedi Council and Co. screwed up, sure, but nowhere near as much as a guy who ran around slaughtering people. And even though it's harsh, it is sadly understandable. Not my type, though. I don't mind bad boys, but mass murderers are not so cool, even if fun to watch movies about. XD
(no subject) - wendynat on December 8th, 2005 05:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - imadra_blue on December 9th, 2005 12:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
albur on December 8th, 2005 11:52 am (UTC)
Oooo. I like your rants.

And I don't think that you are the only Anakin and Mace fangirl. I love the SW saga and I think I have a love for all of the characters in one way or another...

One thing though. I'm not sure where I read it actually so you can just brush past this without batting an eye, that's fine. But I gathered technically that Obi-Wan thought Anakin to be dead... he left Mustafar with Anakin alive but after... the line I remember most is But I felt him dying!

Actually it was probably some fanfic I read it in. *shrug*

Point is, and yes I agree with you that it was a damn harsh thing for him to do, that Obi-Wan left Anakin on Mustafar presuming him dead, and only at a later time finding that he was still alive.

Oh well. You be the goddess at this, not I. I'm more suited to the analysis of the SW:KOTOR saga.
Jax: anakin dreamsimadra_blue on December 8th, 2005 12:02 pm (UTC)
:D Loving Mace and Anakin at the same time is so possible, and even fun.

And yes, I think Obi-Wan thought Anakin would die, but the line is not from canon. I totally agree it was harsh of Obi-Wan, but Obi-Wan was not the compassionate type. I'll rant about Obi-Wan's faults some other time, because people seem to forget he's a vicious streak in him, and while generally merciful (except at that point), is not a well of compassion.

Not the goddess, I'm just opinionated. You and my brther could hang out on the SW: KOTO deals!
dilly r: aayla - sassybabel on December 8th, 2005 12:03 pm (UTC)
How about if I hate Mace and Yoda for their arrogance and the way they treated Obi-Wan instead? *laughs*

(Pretend I said something intelligent here. I've been out of it for DAYS, so I have nothing to contribute to anything.)
Jax: obi-wan passive aggressiveimadra_blue on December 8th, 2005 12:06 pm (UTC)
That would be okay, because Obi-Wan is the bestest thing since sliced bread. You could totally hate them for the way they treated Obi-Wan, Anakin, or the little mouse droid they kicked around that mopped up the Jedi kitchen floor. Just don't blame them for Obi-Wan's issues! ;)

*pretendz* I noticed you were missing! I figured I scared you off. ;) I'm posting this rant (which I typed up like 2 weeks ago) now only because I've been so busy, I have nothing else to post in my LJ. ♥
(no subject) - babel on December 8th, 2005 12:11 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - imadra_blue on December 8th, 2005 12:17 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - babel on December 8th, 2005 12:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - imadra_blue on December 8th, 2005 12:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - neotoma on December 9th, 2005 05:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on April 15th, 2006 01:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
fannish baratheonfatale on December 8th, 2005 01:36 pm (UTC)
Erk, I am not a Mace fangirl, but I do like pretty much all the characters in the 'verse. What it is for me is that the movies are all about an idealized universe that was brought down by very human failure. I think it makes a strong point for the fact that people (or, er, aliens) can't be contained by just a few marginalized ideas - people are not that simple.

Everyone contributed just a bit to Anakin's Big Stupid Mistake, but in the end, it was his decision to make and he made the wrong one. Anakin is a creature of all-or-nothing and everything is black and white. It's the reason why he made said Big Stupid Mistake and I love him for it. In a way, I love him more for all his mistakes and crimes because he's a tarnished old soul who triumphs in the end - and isn't that like Anakin, to want to make a grand finale?
Jax: anakin skywalkerimadra_blue on December 8th, 2005 02:23 pm (UTC)
*nods* I am primarily a Yoda's line of apprentices (from Dooku on down to Leia) girl, but Mace and Lando actually fascinate me. Maybe it's because Mace is the kinda badass I adore in films, while Lando's just gorgeous. [/shallow] You're very right that it's an idealized universe brought down by human failure. I think that is what makes SW so compelling to me.

I agree, a lot of people did contribute, even if in a small part, to Anakin's dumbass mistake, but he did make the ultimate choice. And ultimately, that IS why I love him. He screwed up up BIG TIME, yet he came out all right in the end. Salvation and redemption are some of my favorite themes in stories, and it's because of SW.

and isn't that like Anakin, to want to make a grand finale?

It really is!
every city has its secret...: puff!minrabidfangurl on December 8th, 2005 01:43 pm (UTC)
*ignores rant, eats cookies*

What? You said there was cookies.
Jax: jax/luthe = otpimadra_blue on December 8th, 2005 02:18 pm (UTC)
*feeds you cookies, the special ones Anakin likes, but just because she loves you*

PS - Play with me? Am bored. And yes, you can write 2908597895 fics and still be bored.
http://www.livejournal.com/community/tilting_galaxy/7631.html
Mandaxue_lee on December 8th, 2005 02:33 pm (UTC)
I loved Mace, until movie!Mace started irritating the hell out of me. But that's a personal thing.

Okay. I am an Anakin fangirl. The thing is, I'm an Anakin fangirl because I understand that he's completely psychotic and he needs help. Oh yes. Add to the fact that he's a complete idiot.

If you're going to follow the interpretation that the prequel movies form this one huge tragedy and Anakin's the stupid tragic hero with the one stupid flaw that screws up his life, you can't blame the other characters for his fall. He's arrogant and he's attention-seeking - to me, he's always been like that. The Clone Wars is not an excuse. In fact, I see it more as a catalyst. Because the Clone Was made Anakin to be like, the ultimate hero out there and because he sees himself as someone who's supposed to be able to do anything without fear, his pride starts taking control over his common sense and, well, you know what happens next.

In a sense, I found it quite ironic that Anakin is afraid of not being able to overcome his fears. It's quite sad that he grew up with people expecting him to be something, and when he does get to be something he wants more. In a way, his fall is influenced by a lot of factors and you can't just pin the blame on any one person.

(Yes, Anakin is a bastard, give him that. But without so-and-so by his side, nothing would have happened)

Vader the mass-murderer was really cool at one point in time because you didn't know he was once a whiny, angsty teenager. If rabid fangirls are looking for a hot, murdering bastard with bad-boy appeal here, nah. I think Anakin's more of a classic tragic hero, except that the concept is made much more complicated because there are so many catalysts to his fall.

I didn't mind him murdering babies. I could see that happening. I minded the fact that he actually invented excuses to kill so many people when in fact, he just can't get over himself.
Jaximadra_blue on December 9th, 2005 01:01 am (UTC)
Mwah! Hating a character and finding them irritating is perfectly understandable, acceptable, and I'm not gonna rant about that. Just about the stupidty that comes with loving your fave character a little too much.

I agree the Clone Wars were more of a catalyst for something that was already wrong with Anakin. However, without them, I don't think he would have made the choice he did. But again, that's no excuse. Just a reason.

A lot of factors definitely influenced him, and I'll say that everyone has their part to play and their own mistakes. But Anakin still willfully made his decision.

I adored Vader long before the prequels came out, and Anakin turned out to be nothing like I expected him to. I do, however, enjoy the complications inherent of that. I find his acts reprehensible, but fascinating, and the best part is that despite it all, he gets redeemed at the end. :D
yrrechyrrech on December 8th, 2005 03:07 pm (UTC)
oh a rant , fun. I like you rants :) and this pesky Kenobi fan is totally agreeing with you
I find it quite confusing when some of the fans turns a blind eye to what Anakin is and what he did and starts to blame the other charechter.

Now I don’t think Obi Wan is perfect, he did the wrong choice listen to his master, letting Anakin getts a way with the non Jedi stuff. But I think it makes him such much more human and dare I say more Compassioned then Jinn.
Jaximadra_blue on December 9th, 2005 01:04 am (UTC)
Hee, thanks! Kenobi is Love. :D I understand this urge to identify with the poor man and excuse him, but it gets irritating. It's a societal probelm. People start excusing real life killers and murderers, just because they feel sorry for them. ugh.

Obi-Wan is far from perfect, but that's what makes him so fun. I don't think Obi-Wan was particularly compassionate, though -- he even bordered on mean at times, given his behavior with Jar Jar and Padme in AotC. Qui-Gon was very, very compassionate, as was Anakin. But Obi-Wan less so. He didn't really care much about others (except for a precious few), only doing what he felt he was supposed to. He's quite dutiful.
(no subject) - yrrech on December 9th, 2005 07:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on April 15th, 2006 01:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Dunc: sw: sithlyduncatra on December 8th, 2005 04:43 pm (UTC)
I'm all out of teh smart right now, so let me just say: WORD.
Jax: anakin wordimadra_blue on December 9th, 2005 01:05 am (UTC)
*bows* :D
You Wishdrunken_hawkeye on December 8th, 2005 05:07 pm (UTC)
Nice. Very very nice rant.

I, as any Anakin fangirl, think that the council and others certainly contributed to what was wrong with Anakin. (leaving his mother a slave, anyone?) But I agree with you completely, that the only person who can truly be blamed for Anakin's decision is Anakin. Palpatine spent years putting him in the position to make that decision, but he couldn't actually make Anakin agree with him. Mace was kind of a jerk in the movies, and Yoda was surprisingly stupid for such a wise little troll, but they also did not force Anakin into anything.

In the end, it was Anakin who pulled out his saber and sliced little Liam in half. Not Mace Windu, not Yoda, not even Palps.

And for the record, I like all of those characters, as long as they refrain from having sex with each other.

Something a lot of Anakin-apologists seem to ignore in this is that if Anakin were so squeaky-clean-innocent, then why did he make the various other decisions that lead to his downfall? Why'd he kill Dooku? Why did he ignore the Jedi rules at every possible turn? Why did he slaughter the sand people? Why did he marry the skank Padme? Or how about the OT; if his downfall was through no fault of his own, then why was he an evil murderous bastard, who nearly let his own son be killed? I'm sure they could come up with reasons for all of the above, given some time and effort, but it'll make as much sense as 'the council is at fault for Anakin's fall.'

I don't think Anakin blamed anyone but himself, even when he was Darth Vader. Why should we?
Jaximadra_blue on December 9th, 2005 01:12 am (UTC)
Hee, thanks. :D Yeah, I won't deny that the Jedi Council and a few others contributed to his issues and decisions. Palpatine was the biggest one, because he kept twisting things. But Anakin totally is the stupid idiot who made the wrong choice.

And for the record, I like all of those characters, as long as they refrain from having sex with each other.

I don't mind Macesex, but I think he was kinda hot. >.> The rest, definitely. I love almost all the SW characters, but don't want most of them having sex. (Especially Yoda.)

Yes, they keep ignoring Anakin habitually screwed up, even in TPM if you take his fighting with Greedo into account from the deleted scene (which I personally don't consider dark side, because he was nine and Greedo was being a brat). Little things just piled up, y'know?

You're totally right. Anakin himself would show up and tell his fangirls he did wrong if he could.
Evilly Chipperpadawanewan on December 8th, 2005 05:07 pm (UTC)
I am a huge Obi-Wan fan. Have been since I saw ANH when it came out and I was 11 (no age counting please). That having been said; I am married to a Vader fan. Note I wrote Vader and not Anakin.

I dislike Anakin on his own merits. He's whiny, greedy, self-involved, dim and well, I know alot won't like it...badly performed.

Mace is a pragmatic 'let's get this done' guy. I like that. I understand what Yoda was telling Anakin, but failed to make him see. It makes neither perfect, but doesn't detract from their Master Jediness.

I find the Jedi Order flawed and like that about them. Yet, the alternative for a sect of beings with that kind of Force power would be terrifying without controls of some kind.

I didn't see anyone force Anakin to try a nice bit of genocide on the sand people. He seemed quite willing to commit further atrocities for Padme, who knew it and said...how dare you to Obi-Wan. The same chick when Anakin had a moment of clarity and said no more lies and hiding, stopped him. Nice girl, no.

Lucas made a big point about choices. Anakin chose and made a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Now as to Obi-Wan leaving him on Mustafar...I think he reached the point, after war, after swearing Anakin couldn't do these things and after having everything he'd trained, worked and fought for his entire life fall apart...He had little compassion left at that moment. Sure it isn't Jedi-like...but, Obi-Wan isn't perfect and everyone has a breaking point.

eep..sorry been wanting to say this a while
Jaximadra_blue on December 9th, 2005 01:20 am (UTC)
Hee! I've been an Obi-Wan fangirl since I was 3 and saw ANH, and thought he was a cute old man who was smart and sad. :">

*ded* I think Hayden's performance was inconsistent. Sometimes he was brilliant, other times he couldn't act for shit. I really disliked Anakin as shown in AotC, but his RotS version made me appreciate AotC and he doesn't bother me anymore. Now, since I was also an old skool Vader fangirl, I like Anakin as a whole, but tend to prefer his dark side.

Yes, exactly. Both Mace and Yoda failed to convey things to Anakin, but their points were valid. If they were dealing with anyone other than Anakin, those points would have been understood, too.

Flaws are both good and interesting, imho. :D Makes the story fun, and I wouldn't want to take it away.

Padme is quite the enabler and queen of "blind eye". She apparently thought Anakin was okay until he killed the younglings. I think she feared for her children at that point (and with good reason, given Vader's behavior in the OT: tortured his daughter twice and lopped off his son's hand).

Yes, choices are the crux of SW. Which is what's fun about it.

I don't think Obi-Wan was ever a compassionate man, but he loved Anakin and devoted his life to him. I have no doubt in my mind that Obi-Wan would have died for him. Anakin was his everything (I don't mean this in a slashy way, either), and when said everything utterly betrayed him and destroyed his life? Whatever mercy he had was forgotten because he. hurt. that. much.

(Though Wendy made a good argument how Obi-Wan knew he was emotional, and in an effort to be more Jedi, left Anakin to the will of the Force.)

:D
Looking at the Stars: anakin_chosenonerebeccama on December 8th, 2005 06:41 pm (UTC)
Everybody fucked up somewhere in the SW saga, but Anakin still made his choice -- and people seem to be forgetting that he still had that choice, as hard as it was.

I remember when I was in the theater it struck me, "I'm not even entirely happy with Yoda". They all have flaws. They all make mistakes. However, whatever mistakes the others made (and I'm not denying them) it is Anakin who made a choice. Can I understand why he was angry at being a slave? Certainly. That doesn't make it ok to go to the Jedi Temple and kill children. I find Anakin an interesting character in large part because he is so flawed and because he makes a bad choice. If he was "forced" into the choice with no free will of his own, he probably wouldn't interest me. There isn't a quota of mistakes. The fact that Mace, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Padme, and the rest made mistakes doesn't mean that Anakin is therefore innocent.
Jaximadra_blue on December 9th, 2005 01:23 am (UTC)
Yes! Flaws, mistakes, human error -- the crux of SW, along with choice. We can understand and sympathtize with Anakin, of course we can, all while thinking he was a total murdering bastard. And that, believe it or not, doesn't make me less of an Anakin fan. It just means I love and accept Vader, too. Though neither can come to my birthday party, for fear they'll ruin my presents. ;)
I shot the Albatross...I did not shoot the deputy: anakin has issuessarmajere on December 8th, 2005 06:52 pm (UTC)
You definitely aren't the only one to fangirl Mace and Anakin both :) That said, the entire reason I love Anakin so much is definitely BECAUSE of his faults and his screwed up emotional state, they make for such interesting writing ground. Also, and I'm loathe to admit this, a lot of the guy's personality reminds me of myself in uncomfortable ways and um...that makes me feel a lot LESS messed up surprisingly, I suppose because there's a character I'm able to empathize with in a big way.

All the same, I've never condoned his actions. The thing about Ep3 that hit me the most was watching him do what he did to himself with no one else's help. The fact that there was really no one to blame but himself, and realizing that at some point he was going to be hit with that realization really really got to me, partly because I DO feel protective of the little idiot and partly because man, I've been there. Okay, not to that EXTENT but yeah...
Jaximadra_blue on December 9th, 2005 01:26 am (UTC)
Mace and Anakin are love. They actually have quite a lot in common. WHICH IS REALLY IRONIC GIVEN HOW THE ANAKIN FANGIRLS HATE MACE.

Dude, I was Anakin in spots. His behavior in AotC was so me at 16/;17/18. I was a huge idiot. He annoy sme, because I'm all "I was that stupid, too". But I never killed anyone, and thusly, he's still more fucked up than I am. XD

Yes! I do have a lot of sympathy for Anakin. Ep. 3 was what gave it to me. But I still don't act like he was a sweet person. On the contrary, his dark side is what makes him appealing. :D
흰용: Feels so good from where I'm standing.shoiryu on December 8th, 2005 07:10 pm (UTC)
God, more reasons for me to cling to your leg and gibber happily.

Ever since someone linked me to that one community, or something like that and was like YOU SHOULD JOIN and I went and looked at it and they were torturing Obi-Wan dolls? Uhhhhh.

Circumstances and situations. You can be a technically "good person" and be inclined towards violence. You can be a compassionate person and yet have /no fucking time or patience/ for morons- see also, Jinn, Qui-Gon. And you can make huge flaming stupid willful selfish mistakes all by your lonesome.

dsgdfgfgh I feel another essay coming on, this one prefaced by words like "HI ANAKIN SKYWALKER IS A FLAMING STUPID MORON WHO SHOULD PROBABLY BE KICKED IN THE HEAD A FEW TIMES" etc etc "AND ALSO I HATE HIS STUPID GUTS" only that part's not true even if I'd like it to be ahem.

And god, never get me started on Obi-Wan, who despite his shortcomings- and fuck there's a lot of them- and his dumb mistakes with the kid- and there's a lot of those too- is still sincerely and absolutely the biggest victim in the whole story. I mean, for god's sake. Sometimes I think he's really the only one of these people who's genuinely /doing his very best period./

...I will take my hands off my penis and stop wanking now!

Jax: anakin wordimadra_blue on December 9th, 2005 01:41 am (UTC)


Though my one true internets love is part of anakins_whip (and really she's quite sane), that community sets my teeth on edge. I'm sorry, but I think most members of that community (who so need to listen to me rant) are a few Aces short of a full deck. I've read a few entries from there, and I was like, "... O.o" I mean, dudes. Really. Even Anakin would edge away from these people.

You can be a technically "good person" and be inclined towards violence. You can be a compassionate person and yet have /no fucking time or patience/ for morons- see also, Jinn, Qui-Gon. And you can make huge flaming stupid willful selfish mistakes all by your lonesome.

I have nothing to say to that but "WORD."

Dude, RANT AWAY. PLEASE, I LOVE RANTS I AGREE WITH.

And yes. Obi-Wan has many faults, and I deny none of them, and yes he obviously wasn't the best choice to be training the Chosen One, but he never deserved what Anakin did to him. Ever. And he did do his best, you're so right.

But I like watching you wank. <333
(no subject) - a_blue_moon_cat on December 11th, 2005 05:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
tightfisted little cheaplingcadesama on December 8th, 2005 08:08 pm (UTC)
Man, am I the only person in this fandom who is both Anakin's AND Mace's fangirl? When did liking these two characters become mutually exclusive? WHY ARE WE TAKING THE SIDES OF IMAGINARY CHARACTERS, ANYWAY?

Heh, I'm pretty sure they became mutually exclusive after Mace gave baby!Anakin the stink eye in TPM, leaving the DV fans muttering about the wonderfully low expectations the Council gave Ani to live down to. Seriously, I don't know if you've spent any time in the Buffy fandom, but the whole blame issue here and whitewashing of a villainous character really reminds me of the fights that exist to this day over who is to blame for Faith going bad. Although, uh, those are rather worse than in SW, since blame is squarely laid on Anakin's shoulders every step of the way in the movies, and BtVS did one thing in the show and had all of the good guy characters claim that something else had happened. Anyway, I think the idea of a character living down to low expectations (although, I honestly doubt anyone in the Jedi Order actually thought Anakin would kill them all one day) stirs up a lot of confused, overplayed sympathy for the bad boy/bad girl character doing it.

And we takes sides because, you know, fandom. Not so much of the logical discourse going on most of the time, unfortunately. Although, really, I do enjoy Stover's Mace and want to smack Mace for being a bad Jedi (but there are no ideal Jedi in the PT, anyway, thus the need to balance), not for giving Anakin the stink eye.

And for the record, though my favorite character is Obi-Wan, I don't agree with his choice to leave Anakin there on Mustafar. Given how much he claimed (and seemed) to love Anakin, that was pretty fucking cold. But I can understand it, much like I can understand Anakin's decision. Obi-Wan was hurt, angry, and had given up all hope.

This is one of those odd things that I think I see differently from a lot of the fandom. Sure, leaving Anakin there to burn was cold, but it was also the proper Jedi thing to do. Like you say, Obi-Wan was hurt, upset, and angry. No way in hell should a Jedi be deciding to kill someone under those circumstances. Which, again, why I sort of want to smack Mace sometimes. He was being a bad Jedi in the confrontation with Palpy -- really, I think RotS just exposes the flaws in the Order as a whole, since even the good Jedi have brushes with the Dark Side. And, yeah, that's up to interpretation. It could just be Palpy's plan with the war succeeded in breaking them down, but I prefer seeing those flaws as being the preexisting problem the Chosen One was supposed to fix.
Jaximadra_blue on December 9th, 2005 01:53 am (UTC)
*laughs* Well, Mace may have given baby!Anakin the stink eye, but if you watch closely, Anakin gave it back. It was lurve at first sight. People should write Anakin/Mace hatesex slash. Then maybe there will be peace in fandom. ;)

I am woefully unfamiliar with Buffy, but I can imagine the batshittery situations would have caused. People having low expectations and not believing in Anakin is sad and sympathy-inducing, but let's face it. My parents don't believe I will ever be the CEO of a major corporation, and I never killed anyone because of it. XD It feels like people exchanged understandable sympahty for batshit insane.

Hee, well SW fandom discourses a bit, but no, not logically. XD I really enjoyed Stover's Mace in the RotS novel myself, and found him very well-done and believable. And so like Anakin (only more controlled and Jedi-like). All the Jedi had their issues. Yoda said it himself in AotC. The Jedi were arrogant. They had become brittle and mired, and Yoda's reasoning on how they were so stuck in the past they weren't prepared to handle the new Sith in the RotS novel was so right.

Ah, so it was you who said this, but I think Wnedy above agreed. I agree that Obi-Wan thought it was the Jedi thing to do, because he was hurt and angry. I think the Clone Wars is what ruined the Jedi, and I think the Chosen One could have fixed the Jedi by simply altering their thinking a bit. Anakin could have chosen the philosophical route, and had he been A LITTLE SMARTER, it might have worked. But no, instead, he decided to fix his issues with the Jedi by slaughtering them to the man. :(
(no subject) - cadesama on December 9th, 2005 06:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
hlglnehlglne on December 8th, 2005 08:14 pm (UTC)
where did you find these Anakin fangirls who blame his psychosis and fall entirely on others? I can't remember any round here... unless, did you mean Moi?? golly, I hope not. one can never be certain about these things when it's all virtual like this...

Obi-Ani to me are OTP because they are central, and both incredibly and self-reflexively flawed so that their incompatibilities and attractions lead to fabulous bathos and tragedy and humor, and plenty of hot sex. Yet I increasingly find that I love nearly everyone in GFFA enough to slash them, and that is my great mission with which to travel forward.

A previous poster remarked that he or she liked all the SW characters, 'as long as they don't have sex with each other'. That definitely ain't me. I want them all to shag behind every portal, and bring down the Republic, paving the inevitable rise of the New Republic. Rotten times call for lots of sex. Like now.

Cookies are not the only lure of the Dark Side, after all. There's the bigotry and cruelty and greed and sex with people who weren't planning on having any. The lightsiders have sex too, it's just consensual and doesn't hurt as much. Sex leads to life. Life leads to the Force. Yay.
Jaximadra_blue on December 9th, 2005 01:57 am (UTC)
Well, there's a community full of Anakin apologists who like to burn Obi-Wan dolls and yell at people for being insensitive when they crack roasted Anakin jokes. Not all of them are crazy, but a goodly portion of them seem a little batshit. Also, this girl my sister dug up? Certifiably insane.

Obi-Wan/Anakin are so my OTP. I love them above all, and have ever since I saw the OT and got to know Old Ben and Vader. I love a lot of the characters, but I have to admit I don't want all of them having sex (least not where I can see), but I'm easily squicked. XD

Although porn involving my favorite characters is always welcome. :D
desultory6desultory6 on December 9th, 2005 12:01 am (UTC)
Anakin made his choice, so he has to pay the consequences. If he didn't screw up we would have never gotten Darth Vader and his subsequent return to the light because of (for the most part) his love for his son.

Yoda, Mace, and Obi-Wan have some blame in Anakin's fall, but so do many other people. The person who deserves the most blame is Anakin himself. I'd blame Palpatine before I'd blame any of the Jedi.

Sure Anakin was never cut out to be a Jedi, but being a Jedi didn't make him go bad.

Good rant. People are stupid.

I have a friend who hates Obi-Wan because of Munsfar. I just don't get her logic. She used to love him and loves Ewan McGregor.
Jaximadra_blue on December 9th, 2005 02:00 am (UTC)
Exactly. Anakin's downfall was as fun as his redemption. And I adore his redemption. :D

Yep, a lot of people did contribute to Anakin's downfall, Palpatine especially, but the blame is Anakin's for making his stupid, stupid mistake.

Thank you!

Wow. I don't get people who can hate Obi-Wan, personally. Then gain, my heart bleeds him for like no other SW character. Poor guy got the raw end of the stick.
shadowheartlessshadowheartless on December 9th, 2005 12:07 am (UTC)
Ahhh yes, the good ol' "devil made me do it."

I could just see a ghost Qui Gon coming to Anakin asking him why he turned to the Dark side, and Anakin pouting and pointing at Obi Wan saying "Obi made me do it!" Honestly! I am in total agreement with you on this rant. All these characters have issues, but don't go blaming our precious Obi Wan and Mace for Anakin's turn to the dark! Sheeesh, I hope you ranted like this to your sisters friend. I love Anakin at times, yes I am his fan girl, but other times I loath him. I want to be the one that chops his legs and arm off and leave him as a stump to be lit aflame! I think that's what a "true" fangirl of Anakin really is. XD Either that, or I'm just pretty fucked up myself and belong in the Star Wars universe! XD
Jaximadra_blue on December 9th, 2005 02:04 am (UTC)
*dies* That's exactly what these people sound like sometimes. "The devil/rock music/videogames/Jedi Council made Anakin do it!" Whatev.

I don't know. I think after RotS, Anakin matured enough to accept the blame for his own mistakes. I don't think he would blame anyone else by then, at least not after RotJ. I did state my opinions plainly to my sister's friend, but I was forced to be polite and restrained, so by the time she finished up by saying that it was Mace's fault for being mean, I just walked away. XD
Jess: Hayden C. - Geek and Proud of ithideincarnate on December 9th, 2005 02:56 am (UTC)
No, dude, you're right.
I love your rants.
I go around loving everybody from the movies! XD(even the Jawas! there was a period in my life where I jumped out at my friends screaming UTENIIII!or however that is spelled.)

Now if these fans were 5, maybe I can understand why they hate Mace and love Anakin. Some little boys love to be bad. But I think most kids know that killing other people is not usually a good choice, and would have to say they liked Anakin but no longer want to be his friend because he does bad things. Older fans just should have more brains and reasoning power to see the logic behind it all.
ex_jardin_sa642 on December 9th, 2005 06:13 am (UTC)
I have a little cousin that ever since episode 2 came out he was a hardcore Anakin fan. When he saw episode three he told me he was shocked and disapointed in Anakin turning into the darkside (He knew about Darth Vader but he didn't know that Anakin turned into him!). He understood why he did bad things but that he could have asked for help. So everytime he plays with his Star Wars dolls he uses Anakin but he makes sure I understand that it is pre-Darkside Anakin.

My cousin is six years old by the way.

(no subject) - hideincarnate on December 26th, 2005 04:44 am (UTC) (Expand)
flaws - naughtious on December 9th, 2005 08:37 am (UTC) (Expand)
ex_jardin_sa642 on December 9th, 2005 05:59 am (UTC)
One thing I hate is how some A/P fans blame Obi-Wan for stowing away in Padme's ship thus making Anakin go crazy and causing Padme's death as well as furthering his turn to the darkside. In consequence I've seen a lot of AU fics were Obi doesn't sneak in and they usually end up with Padme bringing Anakin to the lightside and the couple being happy again (without regarding the fact that Anakin had just commited genocide!). Oh yes like Padme could reason with Anakin herself right? Oh please, Anakin was already f'ed at this point and wouldn't listen even to the ghost of his dead mother. Besides you can partially blame Padme because she didn't shut up about Obi-Wan which caused some mild jealousy for Anakin, but like I said he was already bat-shit-dark side-loco and a lost cause.

I mean in some fics written by A/P fans usually Obi-Wan is a very evil guy who wants to turn everyone against Anakin and everyone hates him a lot. Especially Luke because he like OMG lied to him about Vader not being Anakin but murdering him even though Obi-Wan did it to protect Luke because if he told him the truth chances were Luke would jump and join Vader!!! But if they seen the movie they will notice that Luke loved Ben a lot even if he knew him for a short time. And he continued loving him even after he found out about his conection to Vader.

About the Mace hating I agree and Anakin fangirls hate for him is usually reflected on the fics as well. He's usually written as a 2-dimensional character who's only purpose is to make Anakin's life a living hell. Personally I never thought that Mace hated Anakin but that he just distrusted him. He's a dick sometimes but aren't some of the strict teachers that way? I am pretty sure if Anakin had sticked to the path of the lightside he would have won Mace's respect (afterall he already did find the Sith Lord they were looking for that alone would have granted him points on Mace if he let him kill Palps).
Fuck. Yo. Couch.ms_erupt on December 9th, 2005 04:23 pm (UTC)
He's usually written as a 2-dimensional character who's only purpose is to make Anakin's life a living hell.

This comment is here for no other reason to say: *applause*

I've noticed that and it irritates the hell out of me. I'm reading along, thinking something like, "Way to turn a complex character into nothing more than another tick on the list of OMGANAKINIZONLYBADCUZEVERY1FAILEDHIM!11!"

Bleh.
(Anonymous) on December 9th, 2005 03:45 pm (UTC)
I remember when I first started reading sw fanfic after AOTC, I was looking for fic with focus on Anakin and Obi Wan and it was just impossible to find(This was before I found slash). People who write Obi Wan hate Anakin and vice versa. So frustrating.
Fuck. Yo. Couch.ms_erupt on December 9th, 2005 04:35 pm (UTC)
I'm not good at long rants. More of the small outburst person. So this will be short.

*applause*. Ah fucking men, thank you very much.

I really have nothing constructive to add. Four hours of sleep = out of smart. Meh.

the blue cat: lord vader by nutmeg610a_blue_moon_cat on December 11th, 2005 06:57 am (UTC)
A wonderfully written essay. :) I'll have to come back later to make a comment, as you and all the repliers have given me much to think on. It's meta like this that inspires me to write, whether it be fiction, poetry, or non-fiction. :) But I need time to arrange my thoughts. Later. :)

I will say this: you've made a number of good points!
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